Ok, so I finally skimmed through the Herbivore issue and while it wasn’t a complete waste, there were a few parts that I found to be a bit questionable and it could have been resolved with a bit more careful editing or maybe toning down the snark-factor where appropriate. I also wish that the Soul Veg had been given a better explanation (like the one here!) because that particular description de-legitimatizes them.

Elaine> His argument only holds up given the following:
1) All vegans actively participate in capitalism (or to a lesser extent, subscribe to capitalism in some form)
2) Omnivores are fewer in number than vegans.
3) People are vegan only for the reasons he mentioned

This is very much an us-vs-them piece, and while he does bring up good points that I have seen in white vegans, I also think that he does not understand colonialism. There are very few societies that do not use things (or are given things, like cargo cults) that were made through First-World industry. For example (following his stereotypes), there is probably a farmer that has a sheep and is using it for milk, wool, and eventually meat. But this farmer probably has a transistor radio or a cell phone imported from somewhere else. Because of globalisation and capitalism, many objects are available everywhere and doesn’t necessarily mean that this farmer is being ecologically sound or even thinking about ideologies.

Elaine — I wasn’t under the impression that the Lower 9th Ward was repopulated — that link I posted about Katrina makes it quite clear that lots of the people of New Orleans no longer live there. I wasn’t thinking it would be people peering in windows at people — that would be even worse!

As for Vegas, even leaving out the issue of gambling, I find the conspicuous consumption disgusting, as I find conspicuous consumption disgusting in general. The urge for overconsumption is a pretty base feeling, imho, & I think modern tourism in general tends to pander pretty strongly to that (souvenirs, shopping tours, etc.).

Re: that link — I would love to see some citations for their assertion that POCs are more likely to “require” meat (& I notice they didn’t say that about dairy, which would be immediately refutable on the lactose intolerance issue). I also think the phrase “fully developed food culture” is just another way to phrase “but it’s my culture, I can’t give it up/it’s not wrong/etc.” Also I think their ideas about POCs having a “purer” food culture sound dangerously like “Oh, those simple natives! They’re so happy!”

Ico — no tofu in Ireland? Wow!

I’ve been there a few times — I have family there. I have to say that while I haven’t encountered goat brains there, on the whole it’s rough being vegan because there are no soy products. None. I’d go to Chinese restaurants in hopes of tofu and there would only be vegetables and rice.

As for the Temple of Doom reference — OMFG, someone actually tied that godawful movie to Indian cuisine? I can think of few films that are as outrageously racist and offensive as that one.

I’ve been there. My husband grew up there so I saw the Lower 9th when we went there after Katrina ruined his mom’s home. It was… heartbreaking. Her home (not in the Lower 9th ward) was completely ruined. And she couldn’t bring herself to step foot inside it.

But, here’s the thing about the Lower 9th ward (and in fact, much of NOLA at the time, six months after the flood) – no one was there. It was empty. It’s not like peeking into someone’s private life. it’s like visiting ruins left from war. The only people there were tourists and artists.

“so much of tourism is pandering to baser instincts”
I suppose, but… I don’t know. I live in Vegas and we’re a tourist city and I suppose you could say a lot of what Vegas offers is “base.” I’m sure that’s how most people feel. That’s probably why it bothers me. I really hate to think of my city that way. In fact, I consider gaming to run the gamut. Betting, wagering, gambling… well, that’s what happens on Wall Street, too. It’s not just on The Las Vegas Strip.

I haven’t read it, but I think I’d be offended by “White Trash Vegetarian” simply because I’ve been called “white trash” often enough that it still stings. I can understand if someone who identifies as WT wants to reclaim it (in fact, that’s what my mom does), but it still rubs me the wrong way.

Unrelated…
Sorry I keep leaving comments like this, but I don’t know how to share stuff with you and the other writers here in any other way.

What do you think of this:
“Because of these missionary and universalizing tendencies, veganism creates a number of problems within a diverse anticapitalist movement. These problems are especially volatile when it comes to race, owing to a few coincidences: people of color are more likely to require meat for a healthy diet, to have a more ecologically friendly tradition of eating meat, as well as a food culture that is more rooted, less undermined by consumerism, and thus one with which they identify with more strongly. For all these reasons, vegans can come off as particularly insulting and racially exclusive when they insist that a vegan diet is healthier for everyone (not true, some people are healthier when they eat some meat) or when they propagate the peculiar mathematical view of food that a vegan meal, as a lowest common denominator, is the only dietary option that is inclusive to everyone. This is often justified with the argument that “people need to learn that a meal does not need to include meat” as though it were just some ignorant habit and not a fully developed food culture in its own right. A culturally inclusive compromise is not a vegan meal, but a meal with vegan as well as omnivorous options. Predictably, veganism misses out on the merits of pluralism in favor of a decidedly absolutist worldview.”
from:
http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20080604153638368

I feel like the author makes some unjustified leaps and assumptions both about vegans and about people of color. What do you think?

I was just thinking about the issue of exoticism and travel the other day, and how those old Mastercard commercials used to bother me. They were probably from 3 or 5 years ago, and in one commercial, a middle-aged white woman is traveling to Ireland with her mother and they go through the price list of the trip and it ends with something like, “sharing a pint with your mom in the pub where she met your dad: Priceless.” In another version, a white couple journeys to the Great Wall of China, and the ending line is something like, “Crossing off #5 on your life’s to-do list: Priceless.” Assuming that Ireland represents roots and familiarity, and one of the great icons of Chinese history and culture is just another notch in the belt of the Great White Traveler.

T — I am fascinated that you got the goat brain comment about Ireland! In a way that’s kind of heartening to me, since I usually hear that sort of thing thrown around exclusively in reference to “weird” non-First World countries.

I think dialogue & talking to people helps, but sometimes it ends up w/someone making someone else into a token — like what happens to POCs in the US frequently: how do “your people” feel about this or that issue? Dialogue is important but it can’t just end up with someone seeking to mine someone else for info about the culture… taking taking taking, if you know what I mean.

Although I don’t read a lot of “vegan travel writing,” I travel quite a bit and being vegan informs many aspects of where I stay, what I pack and where I go. But its not often that I think of the effect of my veganism on my subconscious evaluation of a culture and the way I may later present it to others. It definitely has several effects though!

For instance, instead of friends and family talking about whatever the destination may be, the hype tends to be “Har har, good luck finding vegan food in ____, all they eat there is goat brains!” (I’ve heard this said about Ireland, Cuba AND Istanbul alike.) This sort of comment always baffles me, as meat is generally more expensive and there are few places on earth where vegetables don’t grow.

But on my end, my experience in a different culture tends to be heavily colored by my ability to eat well there. For instance, Lyon, France didn’t seem very “friendly” to me because there was nothing but pork, while Turkey was great because there was so much vegan food being sold by street vendors. But its wrong to have a view of entire city, country, even culture being dictated by whether they cater to your, admittedly limited, food options. And as vegans, we should be used to people exotifying us for eating say, tofu or quinoa.

So how does one see the “real” place and left the veils of being American, vegan, female, ect? I’m not quite sure.. but when trying to get beyond “the gaze” isn’t it helpful to try to talk to the person you’re gazing at?

Thought provoking stuff.